Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996
Subject: FYI: Supreme Court Rules Against VMI "All Male" Policy
From: Gail K. Logan
Although I suspect you've already seen this--
I hope someone's opening a bottle of champagne and toasting Shannon Faulkner.
G. K. Logan, Esq.
Wednesday June 26 10:30 AM EDT
High Court Rules Against Male Military School
WASHINGTON (Reuter) - The Supreme Court ruled Wednesday in a landmark sex discrimination case that an all-male, state-supported military college must admit women.
The high court decided by a 7-1 vote that the historic all-male admissions policy at the Virginia Military Institute (VMI), the nation's oldest military college, unconstitutionally discriminates against women.
The Supreme Court also held that VMI in Lexington cannot offer a separate military-style program for women at an all-female school in Virginia as an alternative to becoming coeducational.
The decision was an important victory for the Justice Department, which said the public college's program for women represented unconstitutional sex segregation similar to the infamous separate-but-equal doctrine of racial segregration.
VMI and The Citadel in South Carolina are the only state-supported male-only military schools in the nation. Their admissions policies date back to their founding in 1839 and 1842, respectively.
Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote for the court majority that exclusion of women from the educational opportunities VMI provides denies equal protection to women. She said the remedy at the all-female school ``does not cure the constitutional violation.''
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996
From: Angie Dorman
Actually, we are having a small celebration that makes the farewell party that el cid gave to shannon look tame.
It was such a shock to actually hear the supreme court decide something that makes so much sense.<g>
--Angie Dorman
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Louis R. Coatney
Then I trust everyone here agrees that standards in the military must be *absolutely* equal ... with no discrimination in combat pack loads/weights, as just one example, between the sexes.
?? :-)
Lou Coatney
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Linda McAffrey
Three Cheers for the guts Shannon Faulkner showed---even though all of the arm chair Tuesday morning quarterbacks raked her over the coals--here on the list as out in the other world. If not for women like her VMI would have won.
Linda McAffrey
St. Louis, MO (8 year USN vet)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Gail K. Logan
The full text of the Supreme Court's decision in the VMI case can be accessed on the web through Cornell University's Legal Information Institute. The URL is:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/supct.table.html
Cases are sorted by year and month. You'll want to look for June 1996, United States v. Virginia, 94-1941.
The text of the decision may also be obtained via FTP from the following location:
choose either the "ascii" (for no footnotes) or "word-perfect" (for the text with footnotes) subdirectory, and select the four 94-1941 files (syllabus, opinion, concurrence, and dissent) for transfer.
Gail K. Logan, Esq.
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Marian Neudel
What I don't understand is why the VMI alumni, who spent $14million of their own money on the legal battle, couldn't have fronted the roughly $10million/year to replace the state subsidy instead?
Marian Neudel
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: STEAM GENE
Hello to Minerva -
I have seen two mentions now which praise Shannon Faulkner's role in the VMI
decision.
I may be totally dense, but I fail to see the connection.
She entered the Citadel - The Military College of South Carolina not VMI -
Virginia Military Institute. Were I a VMI lawyer, I'd point at her and say
"It doesn't work - what part of 'Shannon Faulkner' don't you understand?"
Now she's saying she might reapply? There is a very real possibility that
VMI will go private. This will raise tuition, keeping out many male
Virginians who might have gone there as well as keeping it all male.
The only thing the government could then do would be to take the ROTC program
out - but not every VMI cadet is in the ROTC program. The fact is VMI does
not make a major contribution to the Armed Forces of the United States -
especially in officers above the rank of lieutenant, even
more especially Regular officers.
The Newport News (Va) Daily Press has quoted VMI as saluting smartly, saying
"Yes, Sir" and indicating that they want to have a number of female cadets -
not just "...and one bitch." (I've always thought higher of VMI than the
Citadel - that t-shirt, the cheering Sergeant of the Guard, and VMI's
reported attiude bear out my non-native Virginian prejudice.)
Several women attending the Virginia Women's Institute for Leadership were
also quoted as saying they would not transfer to VMI because VMI is "...to
rough".
I'd also like to say that the Minerva response so far has been much more
restrained than I was anticipating.
I just don't think that the fat lady has sung yet.
Gene Moser
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Rosemarie Skaine
Linda,
Would you post your initial thoughts and reactions to the significance of the Supreme Court VMI decision.
Sincerely,
Rosemarie Skaine
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw
Talk about being put on the spot :- #
Well, first I was relieved to find that my reasoning about the impropriety of using public funds to subsidize VMI (and by extension the Citadel) was in line with that of the Supreme Court. Sometimes I have very odd ideas, and what seems self-evident to me appears bizarre to most other people. It's always nice to see that once in a while I qualify as normal.
After that, my main feeling is curiosity; I feel curious about a number of things:
I've just read through the decision and dissent quickly, and I am not a lawyer, but I am curious about implications of this decision beyond the immediate case. It seemed to me at first glance that this case was decided on somewhat broader grounds than might have been necessary and may have an interesting life as a precedent. Will some of the lawyers on the list share their take on this?
In reading the inspiring quotations at the conclusion of Scalia's dissent, I wondered whether there is any reason a female cannot be a "gentleman." (I, for one, would never go intoxicated to a lady friend's house or discuss private family matters in public.) And I wondered, as I read through the qualifications, how many of the male persons at the Citadel might grow up to become gentlemen.
I wonder, together with some others on the list, whether the people who so value the old-fashioned ambience at VMI and the Citadel will pay what it will cost to preserve them. Even before the Supreme Court decision there was a movement to remove ROTC from these campuses on the grounds that their antiquated approach to military training would not prepare students there for service in the real military of the late twentieth century. But they could have something equivalent: perhaps a Civil War reenactment brigade. There is something to be said for preserving anachronisms, and some of them even pay for themselves. Think of the tourist traffic to the Pennsylvania Dutch country.
And I am very curious about the young women who now have the opportunity to prove they are as tough as any male rat. This next go round it won't be one lone girl all by herself. They won't be young ladies of the Mary Baldwin type. Like another poster to this list, I wonder whether they will all automatically be "stigmatized" as lesbian if they prove themselves as "manly" as the boys, and, if so, whether this will be any barrier to their presence in the school. Actually, it seemed to me that the all-female band of "leaders" at Mary Baldwin was the sort of thing that would have raised eyebrows a few years ago before the advent of "lesbian chic."
Finally I am curious about how much emotion may still surround this issue and how much of it might spill into this list. So far, I've seen no need to call out the fire brigade. :-)
Linda Grant De Pauw
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996
From: Rosemarie Skaine
Thanks Linda, for posting. Didn't mean to put you on the spot - I just think your analysis is worth hearing annd would be thought provoking for some of us and - it was. Thanks ever so much. Rosemarie
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996
From: Linda McAffrey
Reference Gene Moser's remarks---the point is really very simple--probably 51 percent of the state tax benefits to VMI come from women. (Please don't argue the number it might only be 45%--who knows) The second part of the equation is that whatever the portion women receive no tangible benefit for their tax dollars. Let them, go private, the Brother Rats (their own nickname), can afford it from that wonderful good old boy system that has developed over the years.
The point about Shannon Faulkner is called equality or in legal terms try precedence.
Linda McAffrey
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996
From: DeAnne Blanton
"Taking VMI private would not solve their problem unless they could completely operate without any form of federal aid, which is highly unlikely, since most students would need financial aid..."
Not necessarily true! Students at private colleges are indeed eligible for financial aid, even if they attend a single-sex school. I'm still paying off my student loans!
DeAnne Blanton
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996
From: Lee R. Unterborn
The question is not eligibility but jurisdiction, it brings you within the scope of Federal laws on discrimination if your institution has students getting federal aid.
Lee R. Unterborn
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996
From: Bonnie
Hutchens
Then I trust everyone here agrees that standards in the
military must be *absolutely* equal ... with no
discrimination in combat pack loads/weights, as just
one example, between the sexes.
?? :-)
Lou Coatney,
Lou! Your sexist slip is showing!
When I was in the service (1980s) I carried the very same pack as the male soldiers, I marched the very same distance and I had the very same training.
Let me digress here and tell you a little bit about when I was training at Ft. McClellen. My unit was one of the last to go through training gender integrated. The four platoons were equally divided - two male, two female. Each platoon was divided into squads. I was part of 4th Platoon, 4th Squad so we always went last.
Several dignitaries had come to the base and as a special treat they were included in some training exercises. Their mission was to defend a nearly inpenetrable hilltop fortress. Our duty was to attack the fortress. We were all equipped with a harness that would register when their laser hit us - thus signifying a "kill". If we were killed then we were out of the game. Would you like to know what I heard after my squad had taken their fortress and they were "dead"?
"Damn! We stay alive only to be taken out by girls!"
I could also tell you that the soldier chosen for "Soldier of the Training Cycle" was a female but you'd probably note that physical fitness expectations are different for men and women. I would then have to point out to you that this woman exceeded the males in almost everything we were tested on - including physical fitness tests. In fact, the top three soldiers, in overall performance, were women.
I would also tell you that my MOS was considered a "cerebral" one (military police). The MPs mission was a complex one that combined aspects that were usually reserved for officers as well as combat aspects that were usually reserved for infantry. We were trained as if we would be alone on the front lines of battle - which was part of our combat mission. Much of our training had little to do with the street combat that MPs do every day on most posts. Oh? You mean I didn't mention that the peace-time duty of an MP is not gender divided by the likelyhood of being shot at.... out on the street that felon I was arresting would be just as likely to want to shoot *me* dead as a male MP. But, I digress...
In training there were academic expectations too. Guess how many women exceeded how many men in the 'thinking soldier' training? Most. The average age of the women in the two platoons was 24 (maturity) and average educational level was two years of college (intellect). When passes were handed out for barracks discipline and order, guess which platoons got the passes?
When I reached my permanent unit the level of overall excellence of women was obvious there, too.
We had a pistol team that competed with local military and civilian police teams. The teams came from several (European) countries and the competition was always fierce. It was not unusual to have 350 people competing... well, 349 men and 1 woman. I should note that due to an ammo shortage for my assigned sidearm (a .38 revolver), in competition I had to use the sidearm (.45 automatic) usually assigned to males. I always outperformed my male colleagues - as well as many of the men from the opposing teams. Being the only female competing I was often watched closely by members of the other teams - first as a novelty to be chuckled over, then with growing respect for my abilities.
I can honestly say that in my years of competition I never shot a hole in the wooden roof beam - as one of my male colleagues did!
Oh! And by the way, Lou, I took the same oath of sevice as the male soldiers. I was ready to fulfill that oath to the fullest measure.
So, Lou, when it comes to the final issue of being a soldier I have to say.... Women would bleed and die the same as men.
It is their *duty*.
Bonnie Hutchens
University of Iowa
(former SGT in the US Army, Military Police)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996
From: Lee R. Unterborn
Taking VMI private would not solve their problem unless they could completely
operate without any form of federal aid, which is highly unlikely, since most
students would need financial aid and many would want to be in ROTC. So long
as they get any federal funding they would be vulnerable to a sex
discrimination suit under federal law even if they were a private
institution.
Lee R. Unterborn
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996
From: Ruth McCreery
Great news! I believe some Minervites were involved as amicus curiae--must feel good to have that work pay off. Ruth S. McCreery The Word Works, Ltd.
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