military women and feminism

Military Women and Feminism

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To: H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War H-MINERVA@h-net.msu.edu
Subject: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics

Subj: Re: COMMENT: Molly Pitcher and Other Colonial Feminists
Date: 96-05-22 13:26:17
From: Eleanor Hannah

The power of the words "feminist/feminism" have fascinated me for some time, and I'll say right off that I have not yet reached a satisfactory conclusion in my own mind that covers all the related issues. But the one thing that has come to seem, to me, awesome, is the incredible psychic power of the words, the way the words have been so demonized that strong, able, professional women who would -- hats off to all you military veterans -- stand between us all and the gates of hell will not claim it as their own intellectual birthright.

I work as a college adviser and one of the real hurdles for me personally has been to find a way to accept with equinimity the smart young women who come into my office, plop down in a chair and declare the challenge "I am not a feminist." At first this irritiated the shit right out of me -- both as a self acknowledged feminist, but especially as an historian (I will finish that dissertation soon, I swear) becuase their butts wouldn't be in that chair if it weren't for at least 150 years of hard labor on the part of open feminists, women and men alike, and at the very least a little gratitude seemed in order. I am not so foolish that I argue with them, though I have come to think that some hoped I would, instead I nod and smile and say, Oh, hmmm, and your class choice is? If they are persistant I sometimes ask why they wanted to tell me. Then they retreat into confussion and I say brightly that we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Actually over time they often shift their ground a bit, do a little reading, live a little more, etc.. which is partially what has helped me cope.

But I have also agonized over the issue of how and why these bright bold young women who tell me they are afraid of no sterotypes and that nothing stands in the way of their personal and professional dreams, should be so afraid of a word, a word that in the academy in particular should be theirs to cherish as they have the time to read if they choose all the works of women who have struggled to find a place where they can be all they can be, works that blaze the trail right up to these young women's doors, including especially the feminists who forced open the doors of the university to women.

I have lately settled on the option of being amazed at the power that these words -- feminist/feminsim -- seem to hold, that it has become an epithet is some circles more meaningful than any other, linked to of all things fascist statism. I mean, wow!, that the myriad and confusing claims of feminsim should require these types of heavy artillery to combat suggests that maybe even despite ourselves, we are really on to something. We do actually imagine a radically new world order, one where each woman is free to be and choose -- either as an individual or as part of a larger group -- whatever makes her happy. There are ancient male perogatives at stake here, and they are clearly getting ricketty, and my path is getting clearer and easier. Cool. Count me in. But so I have to respect the uncertainty and confusion on the part of young women who despite their best hopes for safe and succesfull lives, are part of the movement that is rocking the boat. It is a bizare thing to be in the vanguard of a revolution that you didn't start and won't finish and can't stop even if you would. Rejecting the label is about the only defense they have.

Sorry for getting long, but this issue is one I have worried/wondered on for a long time and it is wonderful to have a list like this to try and work it out. I realize I have wandered way off the original post about Revolution era feminists. Thanks!

Eleanor Hannah

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To: H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War Ann Rosenthal
To: H-MINERVA@h-net.msu.edu

In a message dated 96-05-22 09:50:51 EDT, Eloise Prendergast wrote:

<<--Do other women in other-than-military careers spend so much ENERGY in leading, growing, and being understood as women soldiers do? Or is it tiring because even amongst ourselves - women - besides men - we seem to always have to explain ourselves and justify our actions instead of consolidating all the different experiences and just learning from them?-->>

Speaking from personal experience, Eloise, I agree completely. I'm both an academic and a retired Air Force reserve lieutenant colonel. I spent 21 years in the military, pretty successful ones as things go, with two short active duty tours as reservist long after my initial tour was served. I do find it emotionally draining to deal with the administrative minutiae issues. The larger issues I find impossible to discuss.

Experiences? I don't know that I'll ever have the emotional strength to talk about them. But if it's any comfort to the historians, I do keep a journal.

And Josette commented further:

<<--So we should have a contest--another word for the Hildegards of the past--if Feminist has negative connotations. How about Outstanding? Any ideas? Josette-->>

Feminist? Well, I don't like any kind of label, except maybe to be labelled Foucauldian in my eschewing of labels. If I had to label the women officers I knew in the Air Force in the '60s, I'd call us all pragmatic feminists.

Don't apologize for your lack of eloquence. You communicate just fine.

Ann Rosenthal, Ph.D.
Communication
Defiance College
Defiance, OH 43512
rosenann@aol.com

Subj: Molly Pitcher, Feminism, ...
Date: 96-05-22
From: Maria del Pilar Ryan

I just recently subscribed to this list, so I do not know if it is necessary to state that my own ideas do not necessarily reflect those of the Army or the Department of Defense, but let me be on the safe side. These musings are not official in any way. I am writing as a private citizen who happens to be a West Point grad, a career Army officer (14 years so far), and a Ph.D. candidate in History at Penn, preparing for a teaching assignment at West Point. The latest postings on this list caught my eye, since I am a recipient of a Saint Barbara's award, rather than its "distaff" partner, the Molly Pitcher award (I was a battery commander and artillery battalion executive officer). While I have had few military women as mentors, I credit my mother for my success in the military, and I accept the label of "feminist" as one of the heirlooms she has given to me. It would be a slap in her face and in the face of her wonderful friends for me to be so ungrateful as to deny my feminist lineage. That said, it is rare for me these days not to qualify my "feminism" when asked.

Holly Mayer wrote on this list, "many military women are as conservative as many military men in socio-political beliefs--but does that conservatism mean they can't be or are not feminists? Is feminism only a liberal or radical construct? Certainly a number of people would argue that this is the case." While I think that I am a moderate, I can understand why people at Penn see me as fairly conservative. What absolutely bewilders me, however, is when a woman will tell me that I am not a feminist because I collude with the patriarchy as a member of the military service (even though it isn't funny, I am laughing as I type this because it is so unreal to me). I have had four or five conversations like this, with women who know me at least casually, and who know that I went to West Point in the early eighties and did the "pioneer" stuff that all women in the Army do on a regular basis. When I pointed out to three of them that I had commanded the largest artillery battery (then) in the United States Army, it was absolutely dismissed as simply evidence that I was an artless participant in the oppression.

While these conversations did not shake my identity as a feminist, they did sting. I can understand where a less-tempered young woman would choose to reject feminism, rather than go through this "limpia sangre." It takes a centered woman to claim feminism on her owm terms. I am enjoying the comments of other centered women on this list, and I look forward to continued discussion. Pilar Ryan

Subj: "Feminism" -- what is it?
Date: 96-05-22
From: W.L. Salvatore

In a message dated 96-05-21 11:24:05 EDT, PrendEC@hqda.army.mil (Prendergast, Eloise C.) writes:

<<-- My parents raised me to do whatever interested me and set my mind to. Not what was meant for a woman to do, or prove something otherwise. Just live life. I've been interpreted as a threat.......even close male friends worry that I'm on some "feminist kick" when particular treatment from men bother me as if I'm "out to get them to PROVE something" they don't get it. Some do. Nothing against feminism. Just not a feminist.-->>

This sounds like feminism to me: "the radical notion that women are people." Linda Grant De Pauw

<<<<<<<< [response to above from SalvatoB@oeus.psb.bls.gov] <<<<<<<<

It appears to me that a definition has not been agreed upon. My experience is that, under that circumstance, fruitful discussion is rare. E. Prendergast, for instance, clearly has some definition (possibly not formulated explicitly) in mind, and L De Pauw apparently has a conception of what EP's definition is, and questions it; but would they agree on what EP's definition is?

One person said that the term "feminism" was not in use before the 20th century, but that doesn't mean that before 1900 there was no referent to which it could reasonably have been attached if it had been in use. But what was that referent? or those referents? and what are its referents now?

By way of presenting a possible alternative to LDeP's definition, i quote "Marsha in Milwaukee ": <<--Proto-feminists were those who saw themselves as part of an underclass, which they wanted to raise; but other achievers were indivualists who ignored gender as irelevant because of their knowledge of their own self-worth. It's a matter of mindset.
Marsha J. Valance-->>

I don't have a good definition, because of the many tendentious ways in which the term is used, but I'm eager to see a debate about what definition would be most useful to those whose goal is to make it more likely that no human being will be hindered in the attempt to develop and use that person's own talents and abilities, because I need to be able to discuss this topic in a serious and fruitful way with my children (daughters aged 15 and 13).

Any help in developing such a definition will be appreciated.

W. L. Salvatore

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To: H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War mailto:H-MINERVA@h-net.msu.edu
Subject: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics

Subj: "Feminism" -- what is it in the military?
Date: 96-05-22
From: W.L. Salvatore

I am quite interested in the question of women in the forces as/not as feminists... and am trying to think through some possible answers along the way. My working title has been "Women Warriors/Women Antimilitarists: Will the Real Feminists Please Stand Up!"

Ilene Feinman

<<<<<<<< [response to above from SalvatoB@oeus.psb.bls.gov] <<<<<<<<

Thank you for expressing more clearly and completely some ideas that I was trying to grope toward in my last posting, and especially for relating this topic better to the list-theme than I was able to.

W. L. Salvatore

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw, H-MINERVA
Reply-To: H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War H-MINERVA@h-net.msu.edu
Subject: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics

Subj: Labels
Date: 96-05-22
From: Jane Beckman

I recently replied to another list, on a far different topic, that to label something is to limit it. I think it applies here.

Personally, I think the most descriptive term is what I tend to use for myself: iconoclast.

Jane Beckman [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

Subj: Comment: Military Women and Feminsim
Date: 96-05-23
From: Eloise C. Prendergast

SOME of the e-mails on feminism, in the last couple days make me feel like I have to admit openly, like at an AA meeting, that "My name is Eloise and I am a Feminist". Noooooooooo, I don't think so.... let me share a conversation I recently had on something that has always confused me and made me uncomfortable:

Throughout the years I've found myself in dilemmas on how to identify my "black" friends to another when linking them together for a meeting or referencing who I had spoken to - I've been corrected to say "Afro American", "colored", and "black". The other day, I got thrown for another loop with a new term, "person of color" . And a close NCO friend who is black, said just say "black". But then I find what's okay with one, offends another. Can't figure until a guest speaker explained to me that as time goes on, certain terms 'acquire' a negative connotation so another one is found to make the statement of race (this is not the quote, I've rephrased the best I can remember). The point?

Feminist. Hmmm, has that also seen it's day? Has it received an 'off-color' connotation to people? Where I've sat I've seen the word used in cynicism, sarcasm, insult, a woman who is bitter against men, and even as another term for Lesbian. Which goes back to finding a new descriptive word for the 21st century? Maybe it's a generation thing. Do the women my age (mid 30s) really consider the word in describing themselves or do we need a new 'term'? If we're fighting a word because society has killed the true meaning of it, let's move on to a newer one. You know, instead of remedial PT it's now "reinforced" training, and instead of "barracks" it's now "soldier's quarters" - what's the new thing lately - - politically correct?

When I go to functions and slap a name tag on my chest, it reads "Eloise Prendergast Information Management Specialist" - - - so I guess that's why I appreciate what that era did for women today, but I wasn't there. Just like I'm not a WAC. Then again when people ask me what I am in the Army, MY answer is an Artillery Officer. I like to make sure people know EXACTLY what branch. Then again, I'll make sure people know I'm a New Yorker too. So - guess I need a term in relationship to "feminist" that I can throw out there feeling the same way.

HOLD IT - - let me get out my flak vest (the velcro ones are pretty cool........)

Eloise Prendergast

Subj: Re: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics
Date: 96-05-22
From: Trudy Last

I think of a feminist as someone who believes in the social, political, and economic equality of women; and historically women have tried to reach these goals by two different methods--(in short and to the point): 1)emulate men and try to get what they have, and 2) glorify what is perceived as traditionally female/feminine. Liberal feminists make up number 1, and cultural/radical feminists make up number 2. Liberal feminists believe that men and women are basically the same, and that if you put them in the same environment, and raise them the same way, etc., they will behave more alike than different. Cultural/radical feminists believe that men and women are basically pretty different, "inherently different," maintaining an underlying yet unspoken assumption that women are better than men (at least this is what I've been taught)...so that feminism has two opposing camps within it...BUT then of course everyone just blurs the lines between the two anyway (you almost have to) so that number 1 and number 2 don't always make a lot of sense as categories. Thesis, anti-thesis, synthesis going on all the time.

One thing I've noticed, (and I'm sure others notice this too), is that women who would not call themselves feminist also would not give away any of the social/economic/political advances acquired by those who do call themselves feminist.

I don't think it is that easy--to say "I just do what I want...follow my interests...I was raised to be an individual...etc."--you really can't see the trees when standing smack dab in the middle of the forest. I'm raising my daughter to be an individual, to follow her interests, dreams, etc., but I see her getting tripped up all time, and she is only 11. (Good reading for mothers raising daughters, "Reviving Ophelia," Mary Pipher).

Having said this, I STILL REALLY UNDERSTAND the reluctance women have in calling themselves a "feminist" because I feel it too--as if "feminist" signifies that you are some major "radical" aggressive (unreasonable? can't be pleased?) person--a minority--when in fact you are so so so so so so so normal. Feminist has "icky connotations" associated with it. I have lots of ideas about where these icky connotations come from, but I think the bottom line is that society simply does not really like women, and we women are part of society, and so have trouble liking ourselves.

Trudy Last

Subj: Comment: mil women and feminism
Date: 96-05-23
From: Eloise C. Prendergast

<<--I recently replied to another list, on a far different topic, that to label something is to limit it. I think it applies here. Personally, I think the most descriptive term is what I tend to use for myself: iconoclast.

Jane Beckman [jane@swdc.stratus.com]-->>

Iconoclast: one who attacks and seeks to overthrow popular or traditinal ideas or institutions - - - interesting........................ but too many syllables - doesn't roll off the tongue smoothly................... :-)

Eloise Prendergast

Subj: Re: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics
Date: 96-05-23
From: Jane Beckman

<<--Feminist. Hmmm, has that also seen it's day? Has it received an 'off-color' connotation to people? Where I've sat I've seen the word used in cynicism, sarcasm, insult, a woman who is bitter against men, and even as another term for Lesbian.-->>

I have noticed that there has been an evolution since the '60's. Originally, the term Women's Libber was used. This was a slur almost from the start. To be accused of being "Libby" was an accusation of radical fanaticism and willingness to alienate or possibly resort to violence. Women's Lib as a term has all but died out, as the more moderate have adopted "feminist." (I have always pointed out that I am "a Victorian feminist, not a modern one" and hence opened the door to further discussion, as I regard the Victorian species as MUCH more radical than the modern variety.) Now, I notice that "feminist" is part of a new battery of slurs, root of "femi-nazi" and others. Let's face it, no matter how we self-describe, we're never going to be PC. People simply don't like having their paradigms shifted.

Jane Beckman [jane@swdc.stratus.com]

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 From: Linda Grant De Pauw H-MINERVA
Reply-To: H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics

From: Ruth McCreery

My daughter (20, soon to be a platoon sargeant at Annapolis) says she is not a feminist. The term she prefers is "strong woman."

Somehow she has the idea that feminists are radical, anti-male crazies, and she doesn't want to be associated with them. (And I say look at me, I'm polite, I'm married to a man, I even have attacks of knitting a lot, and I'm a feminist.) I gather that women of her age group who self idenfity as feminists tend to be a bit hysterical about it, taking any slight as a manifestation of the patriarchy at work and using confrontation and accusations of misogyny by preference when a little calm and bridge building might be more effective.

My sense is that, in part, the preferred term has just mutated, perhaps to escape some of the negative connotations of "feminist." But the world has also shifted since I was her age. "Strong woman" 30 years ago probably meant someone who could raise 5 kids without the help of an alcoholic spouse and have them all turn out massively sane, socially conscious, and constructively ambitious. A woman who was going to spend her life pioneering in what had been male-only preserves, because that was where her abilities and interests led her -- was a feminist.

What I fear the "strong woman" may lack is the "sisterhood is powerful" concept that is so integral to feminism. Do strong women (or whatever today's pioneering but not "feminist" women think of themselves) work together for change? Or do they write off women who follow more conventional paths as weak and never wonder how it is that the opportunities they have, and their mothers did not, came about?

Ruth S. McCreery
The Word Works, Ltd.

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw H-MINERVA
Reply-To: H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: Military Women and Feminist Academics

From: W. L. Salvatore (Salvatore_B)

Personally, I think the most descriptive term is what I tend to use for myself: iconoclast.

Iconoclast: one who attacks and seeks to overthrow popular or traditinal ideas or institutions - - -
interesting........................ but too many syllables - doesn't roll off the tongue smoothly................... :-)

Jane Beckman is the only person who has a right to decide what term best describes _her_ .

I think, however, that as a group descriptor "iconoclast" is a poor choice because it encourages confusion of the end with a means.

The objective, in my opinion, is equality of respect and opportunity.

Attacking traditional forms is only one means to that end, -- one very useful for consciousness-raising -- but certainly the most effective combination of means will include some with an implicit orientation toward building up rather than tearing down.

W. L. Salvatore

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996
From: Jennifer Rebecca Peters
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: Feminists and the American Revolution:

From:Ann K. Wentworth

I am surprised no one has mentioned Deborah Sampson Gannett (alias "Timothy Thayer" and "Robert Shurtleff") who twice enlisted in the American forces during the American Revolution--dressed as a man. The first time she was discovered, but the second time she served for 18 months until she was wounded and eventually given an honorable discharge. She went home to Massachusetts, married, had a family & eventually received pensions from both the national and state governments. I am not sure she qualifies as a "feminist", but after her death her husband received a widower's pension based on his wife's service--quite a role reversal for the time!

Back during the Bicentenial some group did a film on her here in the Hudson Valley and she is occasionally mentioned in articles and history books.

There was also a teenager whose name escapes me at the moment who did a Paul Revere type ride in southern Dutchess County to warn the community that the British were coming. She has never gotten the press that Paul did though!

Ann K. Wentworth
SUNY-Empire State College

Date: Mon, 27 May 1996
From: Linda Grant De Pauw , H-MINERVA
Reply-To:H-MINERVA
H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in War
Subject: COMMENT: Military Women and Feminist Academics
From: Trudy Last

That's my understanding too. The cultural/radical feminists see themselves as intrinsically different from/better than men because of their nurturing, "peace-making" qualities--those same qualities required for mothering--which is antithetical to violence.
Trudy Last.

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 19:54:32 -0400 From: Theresa Kaminski

For all of those who are really interested in the definitions and language regarding feminism, I strongly recommend Nancy Cott's **The Grounding of Modern Feminism**. The young women who adopted the term just after the turn of the century did so as a kind of in-your-face thing--they wanted to be seen as very different from the woman's rights activists of the 19th century. To them, women's (and these aren't typos here; some saw this in terms of the singular, as in all women are the same, and later activists used the plural term in recognition of differences) rights meant more than achieving political and economic equality with men. Remember, there was a bit of a sexual revolution going on in the first couple of decades of the 1900s.

And while I agree with the basic division of liberal (also called reformist) feminism and radical/cultural (although not all radical feminists believe in cultural feminism) feminism, I would be very hesitant to claim that the radicals are more prone to violence. After researching radical feminism for many years (yes, there is a book in the works on this) the only violence I have ever found were isolated instances aimed at property. For the most part, radicals were/are suspicious of actions they consider to be malecreated and, true or not, violence is one of them. Again, going back to the turn of the century, many feminists were also pacifists. Think of Jeannette Rankin, the courageous congresswoman from Montana, who voted against U.S. entry into both world wars.

Theresa Kaminski
Dept. of History
University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point

Date: Fri, 24 May 1996
From: Francine D'Amico

Eleanor Hannah has wondered about the way young women disclaim the feminist label...I have noted that most who do so embrace feminist politics of seeking equality/equity/justice...but given the backlash against feminism, is it any wonder they would not identify with a movement blamed for every social ill from a poor economy to high crime and divorce rates by the right? Rush Limbaugh et al. use the term "feminazi"...on electronic mail discussion lists I have seen anti-feminists use terms like "cuntist" and "bitchist" to describe feminists like myself.

Francine D'Amico

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