Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 11:00:32 -0400
Subject: QUERY: Fictional Women Heroes
From: Susan Romano;
During the course of writing on women, feminism, and computer technologies, my coauthor and I asked ourselves the following quesion:
Who are our fictional (including filmic and other representational genres) feminist heroes these days?
We turn to H-WOMEN. Who are the fictional women that we turn to with admiration and glee? (Admiration + glee = my seat of the pants definition of hero.) I'll compile a list if I get many answers. Thanks.
Susan Romano
University of Texas at Austin
Shudder. Thelma and Louise come to mind, as icons of the masses.
I doubt that very many women think of Scarlett O'Hara, who is one of my own feminist role models (disfunctional product of her upbringing though she was). Wow, that was one strong woman!
Glee? I'm not sure glee is a very good criteria. Good heros often have a hint of the tragic, male or female.
But if you want two from the same popular (or at least cult) media, I'll name two from the TV show "Babylon 5" - Commander Ivanova, the no-nonsense first officer of the station, and D'Lenn, the spiritual alien ambassador who is willing to put life, soul, and ego on the line to save the peoples of the universe, even if it means going up against her own people--or the entire Earth Alliance fleet.
(Favorite line: standing up against the Earth Alliance fleet, who are set to lay siege to the station, something to the effect of: "Stand down? The Minbari fleet is behind me. There is only one human who ever defeated a Minbari ship; he is in front of me. You are between us. BE SOMEWHERE ELSE.")
Jane Beckman
> From: Susan Romano <romano@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu>
>
>>
>Q: Who are our fictional (including filmic and other representational
> genres) feminist heroes these days?
>
>
Sara Lowes, Reed College
> >Q: Who are our fictional (including filmic and other
representational
> > genres) feminist heroes these days?
In science fiction/fantasy:
Captain Signey Mallory
Cordelia VorKorsegan
and the woman in Elizbeth Lynn's series -- her name escaptes me a the
moment.
Sharon Wildwind
Calgary, Alberta
My favorite fictional hero is Jo from _Little Women_ by Louisa May Alcott. Although she is a present day hero, she is for me.
I'm not sure she would be included in most lists but one of my favorite female characters from a book is Molly Bolt from Rubyfruit Jungle by Rita Mae Brown.
We originally sent this only to the original requester, but in case people are interested:
Off the top of our heads, the following:
Movies: Aliens - both the lead female and the Marine
Terminator II (and Terminator I though to a lesser degree)
Books: C. J. Cherryh's SF & fantasy novels are full of strong female characters. Our favorites include:
Captain Signy Mallory in _Downbelow Station_
the lead character of _Rimrunners_ (forget the name, don't have the
book)
Ariane Emory I and II in _Cyteen_
Arafel in _Ealdwood_
Perhaps these aren't always "heroic" but they are important,
powerful, plot-driving charaters in the novels. Certainly "admiration and glee" apply!
Fiona (main character) in Walter John Williams' _Ambassador of Progress_ is another possibility.
K.B. Sulaiman in _Looking for the Mahdi_ by N. Lee Wood is another one to look at.
We can come up with more if you want or provide more details of these books.
James Sterrett & Corinne
Mahaffey
>We originally sent this only to the original requester, but in case
people
>are interested:
>
>Off the top of our heads, the following:
>
>Movies: Aliens - both the lead female and the Marine
> Terminator II (and Terminator I though to a lesser degree)
>
>Books: C. J. Cherryh's SF & fantasy novels are full of strong
female
>characters. Our favorites include:
>
> Captain Signy Mallory in _Downbelow Station_
> the lead character of _Rimrunners_ (forget the name, don't
have the book)
> Ariane Emory I and II in _Cyteen_
> Arafel in _Ealdwood_
>
> Perhaps these aren't always "heroic" but they are
important,
>powerful, plot-driving charaters in the novels. Certainly "admiration
and
>glee" apply!
>
>Fiona (main character) in Walter John Williams' _Ambassador of
Progress_ is
>another possibility.
>
>K.B. Sulaiman in _Looking for the Mahdi_ by N. Lee Wood is another one
to
>look at.
>
>We can come up with more if you want or provide more details of these
books.
>
>James Sterrett & Corinne Mahaffey
>udrj007@kcl.ac.uk
Continuing this thread, an absolute must for MINERVA is Amanda Gordon in the story of the same name in _The Dorsai Companion_ by Gordon R. Dickson.
I'll also add two very tough women--Molly Millions, the bionically enhanced bodyguard from William Gibson's "Johnny Mnemonic" and then the _Neuromancer_ series, and Modesty Blaise, the female James Bond who leaves old 007 in the dust.
John McCreery
3-206 Mitsusawa HT, 25-2 Miyagaya, Nishi-ku
Yokohama 220, JAPAN
"And the Lord said unto Cyrus, 'Shall the clay say to him who moldest it, what makest thou? Let the potsherd of the earth speak to the potsherd of the earth." --An anthropologist's credo
I'm just back from vacation and missed most of this thread. Before it peters out, I want to nominate the heroine of my own novel Baptism of Fire -- Maggie Steele. I made her up because I couldn't find any military women in fiction who satisfied my desire to see a female hero who did not have to be either an honorary male, a sidekick to a man, or a vicltim. In the unsatisfying (victim) category, I recall the character of Major Margit Falk in Margaret Truman, Murder in the Pentagon. I was surprised to learn that the DACOWITS people were enthused about the book and requested autographed copies for members of the executive committee in 1992
Linda Grant De Pauw
Upon reading GTWT a second time, and then reading a biography of Margaret Mitchell, I was not surprised to find that Mitchell considered Melanie the heroine of the story, not Scarlett. Of course, Melanie's role was less emphasized in the film, and Scarlett's was more emphasized, and most people remember the movie more clearly than the book.
Kathie Johnson
502-852-6674____FAX: 502-852-6673
Linda's message reminded me of the tv show "Space: Above and Beyond." If this topic wasn't done to death during the regular season I'd like to hear what you all thought of the show. Personally I liked it, but then I'm a civilian and it probably doesn't get me the same way it would someone who actually served.
Val Eads
Oh dear, another Ace reader! Moi O-C, which really dates us both. [For the rest of the list, the infamous Ace pirated editions of The Lord of the Rings were published in the mid-60s. Do I have to tell you what this timing did to my already wretched grades in my senior year?] I think Elf women although immortal are still women; they bear children, etc. And if one reads the other books, The Silmarillion and those collected Tales volumes, it becomes clear that they were some tough and not so nice women as well! The work Galadriel did wielding the ring of adamant was much tougher and more vital than the work of any warrior and by that time in her long, long life she could turn the thought of the Dark Lord himself. As for beings like the Valar and Maiar, it raises some interesting questions. They put on bodies like mortals put on clothes, but the selection of the body is made according to what Tolkien called "innate differences" if I remember correctly. I guess this makes him a strict contructionist naturist as opposed to my strict constructionist nurturist stance.
Since this whole thread started with female heroes, let me dig up one more of Tolkien's minor female figures. Haleth, a human, led her people after the death of her husband and they were known to the elves as The People of Haleth for many generations. The word "haleth" is perfectly good Old English (as is Eowyn); the standard translation is "hero." Tolkien was one of the great Old English authorities of this century. I doubt he would understand much of this entire discussion, but he knew heroic poetry like most of us know our SS numbers. Incidentally, this is the 60th anniversary of the publication of Tolkien's paper "The Monsters and the Critics." That was about the Old English poem "Beowulf" and permanently changed scholarly approaches to that work. A good bit of the material for the Eowyn scene was swiped from the death of Beowulf! A fiery dragon hurtling down, the old king slain, abandoned by all but one loyal retainer, etc. Great stuff!
Sorry if all this academics is boring, but if you want some different heroic women try the Old English saints lives; holiness was not for the fainthearted in those days I tell you.
My motorcycle was named "Rudi" after the magnificent Nureyev.
Val Eads
On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Jennifer Rebecca Peters wrote:
> Dear Val,
> You are right on every point. I must reread the Trilogy. (by the
way, my
> first exposure was through the Ace pirated edition, which I still
have -
> though its possible value was accidently ruined by my son at age four
or so
> who tore some pages.
> I've got no problem with the use of the Trilogy - in fact its
portrayal of
> the female (can an Elf Queen really be termed a "woman"?) says volumes
about
> the perceived role of the woman in society.
> And I meant no disrespect to the Lady Eowyn. I once named a
motorcycle
> "Eowyn".
>
> Gene Moser
>
Reina, I have to disagree on this one. My daughter is 25 now, and she grew up on Wonder Woman, the Bionic Woman, and Isis. The Bionic Woman (whose civilian identity was a teacher) especially got "down-and-dirty" on occasion. While Meg didn't realize her first choices for adult careers-- commanding the Starship Enterprise and/or impressing a gold dragon--she is an independent free-lance writer who marches to her own drummer. I'm sure what she watched and read helped mold her. Marsha in Milwaukee (whose only TV heroines available as a child were Annie Oakley and Dale Evans)
"Frontiers of any type, physical or mental, are but a challenge to our breed. ... . If we will it, not only the wonders of space, but the very stars are ours!" --Andre Norton
The folks at Tribute Farm -- the Valances (human), Gay Tribute, Andre Norton, Anne McCaffrey, & Tony Fennelly (equine), Brownie (canine), and Nathan Detroit, Nicely-Nicely, & Miss Adelaide (feline). **
<valance@omnifest.uwm.edu>
Tribute Farm: Storytellers & Morgan horses
6639 West Dodge Place
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA 53220-1329
What about ALL of Jo Clayton's heroines? Or for mainstream, the heroines
of Susan Isaacs and Marge Piercy.
Marsha Valance
"Frontiers of any type, physical or mental, are but a challenge to our breed. ... . If we will it, not only the wonders of space, but the very stars are ours!" --Andre Norton
The folks at Tribute Farm -- the Valances (human), Gay Tribute, Andre Norton, Anne McCaffrey, & Tony Fennelly (equine), Brownie (canine), and Nathan Detroit, Nicely-Nicely, & Miss Adelaide (feline). **
<valance@omnifest.uwm.edu>
Tribute Farm: Storytellers & Morgan horses
6639 West Dodge Place
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA 53220-1329
I put in my vote for Kay Scarpetta of teh Patricia Caldwell mystery series. Whi le it takes us out of the espiionage/military/ space arena...I admire her nerve s of steel (usually), her ability t connect with family while still being a str ong role model for women and co-workers...
Phyllis Soybel
UIC
In response to the question of fictional women heroes - I thought of someone not mentioned yet. Maybe this is my "Southern-ness" coming through but what about Scarlet O'Hara from the movie and book GONE WITH THE WIND.
I remembered the name -- well actually I looked it up -- of the heroine in the Elizabeth Lynn books. It's Heris Serrano. I just had to find it or it would keep niggling at me.
Sharon Wildwind
Calgary, Alberta
Hi gang. Having been offlist for a while, I hope I'm not repeating someone else's post (or dangling my participles). Have also been rereading C.J. Cherryh's Chanur series and I have to vote for Pyanfar Chanur. I really do like the old girl!
The academic in me can't resist noting that the concept of hero seems to have changed. In the old days of the Iliad or whatever they all died, preferably young, and it didn't matter if they won or lost so long as they kicked off in style. Our heroic women tend to a) win and b) live to brag about it (or curse their rotten luck depending on the author's taste). I like that a lot better.
If you want a hero more in the old style, although she did live happily afterward, how about J.R.R. Tolkien's Eowyn? Very few people seem to note that of all the mortal characters in The Lord of the Rings she performs the greatest feat of arms without the aid of magic. Can this be a paradigm for how women get lost in history; you have to look carefully for us and few people bother to do so-but we are there.
Val Eads
My favorite is Nancy Drew. When I was growing up, she was one of the few positive women role models for little girls who read books. She was independent, smart, kind, and daring.
DeAnne Blanton
But Eowyn was included at the insistance of Tolkien's daughter, who hated the way the other female characters just stood around offering moral support. Perhaps we just have to insist on recognition. And has anyone mentioned Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion--a paladin in every sense!
Marsha Valance
Wisconsin Regional Library f/t Blind & Physically Handicapped
813 West Wells Street
Milwaukee, WI 53233-1436
"That all may read"
> If you want a hero more in the old style, although she did
live
>happily afterward, how about J.R.R. Tolkien's Eowyn? Very few people
seem
>to note that of all the mortal characters in The Lord of the Rings
she
>performs the greatest feat of arms without the aid of magic. Can this
be a
>paradigm for how women get lost in history; you have to look carefully
for
>us and few people bother to do so-but we are there.
> Val Eads
Yay! Donna Dean
>My favorite is Nancy Drew. When I was growing up, she was one of
>the few positive women role models for little girls who read books.
She
>was independent, smart, kind, and daring.
>
>DeAnne Blanton
A great big AMEN!! to that!! I began reading Nancy Drew back in fourth grade, and always wished I could be like her!!
Felicia Ciaudelli
>In response to the question of fictional women heroes - I thought
of
>someone not mentioned yet. Maybe this is my "Southern-ness" coming
>through but what about Scarlet O'Hara from the movie and
>book GONE WITH THE WIND.
Ohgod, ohgod, ohgod. Do you mean the lil ole gal that was soundly and well
raped violently by her husband, thus learning once and for all that no
uppity woman can resist forceful sex and therefore all uppity women really
just want to be well and truly f...(oh, OK, Linda), had sex with? Why,
based on that example, one has to wonder why all those rape victims out
there couldn't rebuild the world singlehandedly. Well, maybe not
singlehandedly. It helps to have a few old faithful family retainers around
to share in the heavy work, eh?
Me, I like Arley Hanks, of Magoddy, Arkansas. She carries a gun with
three bullets, she's skinny, and she has a smart mouth. My kind of gal.
Donna Dean
I like the ZBS radio series, "The Adventures of Ruby". Ruby is a detective on another planet in the future. It's a fun series with bizarre plots and neat sound effects. The Ruby 2 stories aren't as good (they have a different actress playing Ruby) but the latest adventure has the original actress (Laura Esterman) back again.
At 12:55 PM 8/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>My favorite is Nancy Drew. When I was growing up, she was one of
>the few positive women role models for little girls who read books.
She
>was independent, smart, kind, and daring.
>
>DeAnne Blanton
I totally agree with DeAnne. I read Nancy Drew as well, and feel that she helped me to become an independent person, unafraid to speak my mind and challenge myself.
Karen Needles
Are there any nonfiction heroines out there? I know we've talked about Joan of Arch, but any others? I much more like the nonfiction verse the fictional heroines. Fictional are ok, but there is an element of reality missing! The part that embraces the spirit, emotion and the intellect that is solely ours, as humans. Sure many don't like nonfiction heroines because they have faults, and make mistakes, but this is the beauty of it all. To see one rise to the occasion(s), events and seeing the development of their characters as they pursue their individual goals or a society goal. It is synergy in the making to see one of us, as women or men, as humans rise above the elements and the barriers in life.
Its hard for me to aspire towards the attributes of a heroine when she is fictional; in paper, or film media. Something is lost in the translation for me.
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: REPLY: Fictional Women Heroes
Author: H-NET List for Discussion of Women & the Military and Women in
War <H-MINERVA@h-net.msu.edu> at CSC_uuxch
Date: 8/7/96 1:27 PM
From:veads@email.gc.cuny.edu
Hi gang. Having been offlist for a while, I hope I'm not repeating someone
else's post (or dangling my participles). Have also been rereading C.J.
Cherryh's Chanur series and I have to vote for Pyanfar Chanur. I really do
like the old girl!
The academic in me can't resist noting that the concept of hero seems
to have changed. In the old days of the Iliad or whatever they all died,
preferably young, and it didn't matter if they won or lost so long as
they kicked off in style. Our heroic women tend to a) win and b) live to
brag about it (or curse their rotten luck depending on the author's
taste). I like that a lot better.
If you want a hero more in the old style, although she did live
happily afterward, how about J.R.R. Tolkien's Eowyn? Very few people seem
to note that of all the mortal characters in The Lord of the Rings she
performs the greatest feat of arms without the aid of magic. Can this be a
paradigm for how women get lost in history; you have to look carefully for
us and few people bother to do so-but we are there.
Val Eads
What about Sarah Peretsky's V.I. Warshawsky? Also *all* of George Eliot's heroines.
Marian Neudel
Actually, I mentioned Scarlett, with the note that I wasn't sure if she was "current" or not by that definition, but she was certainly one of mine! But my reply was the very first, so it might have gotten lost in the time-lag.
Jane Beckman
since 10th grade english class, i have always interpreted Hester Prynne from N. Hawthorne's THE SCARLET LETTER as a female hero.
heather perry
indiana university
Val Eads wrote>>>>how about J.R.R. Tolkien's Eowyn? Very few people seem to note that of all the mortal characters in The Lord of the Rings she performs the greatest feat of arms without the aid of magic.
I, who have read the Ring Trilogy more than forty times, completely forgot
the Horse Maiden. Yes - true heroism, and not just in battle. But there was
magic - she is a woman, and the Nine Horsemen, the Nazgul, could not be slain
by MAN.
Gene Moser
Boys liked Nancy Drew, too. A parent of a girl I knew, tried to enlist me in helping her daughter stop reading junk - soon I was borrowing Sally's Nancy Drew and reading them as well as the Hardy Boys - which she also read.
Gene Moser
Donna,
If you are talking about the movie version of Gone with the Wind, which I've seen too many times to count, I don't recall a violent rape. Rhett does grab and kiss Scarlett, then carry her up the stairs, but no where in the movie is a violent rape scene between Rhett and Scarlett. What happens after Rhett carries her up the stairs is strictly left to the imagination.
I actually agree that Scarlett is a heroine. (Yes, I'm a southerner, too.) She does well in the face of adversity. She never gives up. And she's not perfect! That's why she's a great heroine. She has myriad flaws, but she's able to learn (finally) from her mistakes. And, unlike many female characters in novels and movies, Scarlett is not a one-dimensional woman. She is complex, multi-faceted.
DeAnne Blanton
>>> Jennifer Rebecca Peters <jrebecca@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> 08/08/96
12:02pm >>>
From: Donna M. Dean <rvblackwolf@earthlink.net>
>In response to the question of fictional women heroes - I thought
of
>someone not mentioned yet. Maybe this is my "Southern-ness" coming
>through but what about Scarlet O'Hara from the movie and
>book GONE WITH THE WIND.
Ohgod, ohgod, ohgod. Do you mean the lil ole gal that was soundly and
well raped violently by her husband, thus learning once and for all that
no uppity woman can resist forceful sex and therefore all uppity women
really just want to be well and truly f...(oh, OK, Linda), had sex with?
Why, based on that example, one has to wonder why all those rape
victims out there couldn't rebuild the world singlehandedly. Well, maybe
not singlehandedly. It helps to have a few old faithful family retainers
around to share in the heavy work, eh?
Me, I like Arley Hanks, of Magoddy, Arkansas. She carries a gun with
three bullets, she's skinny, and she has a smart mouth. My kind of gal.
Donna Dean
Here's another--non-fiction--possibility: Katherine Hepburn. I think it needs no explanation.
Phyllis
UIC/Columbia College
How about Princess Leia from Star Wars? Maybe she did not single-handedly win on her own, but she was the leader and could fight if needed. And an interesting side note- in Lucas's original treatment of the story, Luke Skywalker was a woman- named Leia.
Pamela Feltus
Nonfictional heros? Wow, I've got a LOT of those...
We'll start with Emilie du Chalet, the physicist, known in her time (early 1700's) as "Lady Newton." Mean fencer, too, from all accounts. Most people know her long-term lover, Voltaire, much better.
Anna Etheridge, of several divisions of the Michigan Cavalry, over the course of the Civil War. Unit matron from the first engagement (Blackburn's Ford), through most of the major battles, right throught to the final homecoming parade. Nurse, general support person, and rallyer-of-troops in the field, in her trademark green riding habit and matched .45's.
Major Belle Reynolds, who cut her teeth marching at her husband's side "with a celebrated heroine and nurse at the battle of Shiloh, became a doctor after the war, went to the Phillipines as a medical officer during the Spanish American War, and stayed on as a Red Cross advisor later.
Fanny Wright, the abolitionist and utopianist activist, who set up the New Harmony commune, where slaves could work for their freedom and where (most shocking of all) equality of the races was practiced? (Tainted by advocacy of "free love.")
Victoria Woodhull, first woman to run for President, who was jailed on "obscenity" charges for writing an expose on Henry Ward Beecher's sexual misconduct. ("I don't mind his actions so much as I his hypocracy...") (More taint of "free love," plus a divorce from an alcoholic husband.)
Cary Chapman Catt (America) and the Pankhursts (England), fighters in the trenches for women's suffrage and women's rights.
Graine O'Malley, the "pirate queen" of Ireland, actually a Clan matriarch and very decent warrior. (The "pirate" aspect is more romantic fancy than the actual reality, which is possibly more interesting.)
And last but not least, my own great-great-great grandmother, Mary Young Walker, who crossed the prairie to Oregon (while pregnant) as part of the first party of settlers in 1841, then was the first white woman to travel the Siskiyou Trail in 1842, with the Emmons Party of the Wilkes Geological Expedition, travelling through attacks by hostile Indians and a major forest fire (they had to run over ground still covered with hot coals from the fire) along the way. (I hope to write a book about this, eventually.)
That's a starting sampler, though there are quite a few more.
Jane Beckman
My latest favorite fictional heroine is the young women in Sebastien Japrosiet's (sp?) World War One novel, "A Very Long Engagement." I don't have the book at hand, but she is wonderful--intelligent, dedicated, insightful, sensitive, and won't take no for an answer. I highly recommend the book for many reasons--foremost among them the wonderful heroine.
Nancy Gaynor
University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee
Staying with the sci-fi genre, how about the many women written about by Marion Zimmer Bradley, especialy in her Darkover series about the renunciates.
Then there's Kagan's hero in _Hellspark_ which is one of the best books of the genre ever written about a woman.
And, although the sex roles are a little confusing what with the three sexes, Asimov's _And the Gods Themselves_ explores some very interesting corners in our minds.
Irene Stuber
Grace Harper -- still programming computers into her 90s
Sharon Wildwind
Calgary, Alberta
Nonfictional heros? Wow, I've got a LOT of those...
We'll start with Emilie du Chalet, ...
Anna Etheridge,. ...
Major Belle Reynolds, ...
Fanny Wright, the abolitionist and utopianist activist, who set up the New Harmony commune, where slaves could work for their freedom and where (most shocking of all) equality of the races was practiced? (Tainted by advocacy of "free love.") #### why "tainted"? implicit judgmentalism here, which was roundly denounced re "lesbians in the USA 20th-century Army". ###
Victoria Woodhull, ...
Cary Chapman Catt (America) and the Pankhursts (England), fighters in the
trenches ### not literally, of course ####
for women's suffrage and women's rights.
Graine O'Malley,...
And last but not least, my own great-great-great grandmother, Mary Young
Walker, ....
That's a starting sampler, though there are quite a few more.
Jane Beckman
<<<<<<<< [response to above from SalvatoB@oeus.psb.bls.gov] <<<<<<<<
well, if "trailblazer" is sufficiently qualifying, how about
Marie Sklodowska (sp?) (Curie) ?
Ada Augusta Lovelace (Byron) ?
Aphra Behn ? George Eliot? George Sand?
Mary Wollstonecraft (Shelley) ? Elizabeth Barrett (Browning) ?
just wondering. we seem to be drifting off "women and war".
larkkingly, Spike
>>>> [the net is so full of ideas and facts,
we're bound to enjoy it --
there's nothing it lacks!] >>>>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:14:47 -0400
Staying with the sci-fi genre, how about the many women written about by Marion Zimmer Bradley, especialy in her Darkover series about the renunciates.
Then there's Kagan's hero in _Hellspark_ which is one of the best books of the genre ever written about a woman.
And, although the sex roles are a little confusing what with the three sexes, Asimov's _And the Gods Themselves_ explores some very interesting corners in our minds.
Irene Stuber
<<<<<<<< [response to above from SalvatoB@oeus.psb.bls.gov] <<<<<<<< trotting way out into left field with everyone else, spike is overheard muttering, while peering deep inside the outfielder's glove he is wearing, "ah, the left hand of darkness!" [ Ursula Kroeber (LeGuin) ]
and how about in "Citizen of the Galaxy" [ "Anson Macdonald" ] when Thorby finds out that the attractive person of like age and unlike sex whom he's condescendingly been explaining 3-D to actually is a teacher of n-dimensional geometry? that was my first exposure to "girls can too!". pre-pube, GsD, and before my first experience with how the BG witches and their "voice of command" are among us already.
still looking for a good game of all of WW2
which can be finished in one weekend,
Spike
>>>>>> [Dr. Spock says: Live long and prosper, baby!] >>>>>> >>>>W.L.Salvatore -- SalvatoB@oeus.psb.bls.gov<<<<
>Fanny Wright, the abolitionist and utopianist activist, who set up the
New
>Harmony commune, where slaves could work for their freedom and
where
>(most shocking of all) equality of the races was practiced? (Tainted
by
>advocacy of "free love.") #### why "tainted"? implicit
>judgmentalism here, which was roundly denounced re "lesbians in the
USA
>20th-century Army". ###
I had to put in the "tainted" listing, as this was a denouncement from the "establishment" right up through the middle of this century. After all, women who advocated sex outside the institution of marriage were obviously whores! Wright was even worse in the eyes of her contemporaries, as she not only advocated free love, but also believed that alliances between races was all right! (Even Malcolm Forbes, in _Women Who Made a Difference_ accuses Woodhull of being a prostitute, a charge leveled by her detractors at the time.) On a personal bias, any woman who was tainted by the charge of advocating "free love" gets extra points from me. I would have been out there advocating it, too. ;-) These women were denounced in their time for their beliefs, and deserve to have it mentioned. It's another show of guts in the face of social mores.
[list of more women of note]
Oh good, I've sparked more discussion! I left out Behn, Mary Wollstonecraft
*and* Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley (her daughter), though I thought of them.
We could start putting in folks like Margaret Fuller, Caroline Herschell,
and Lucy Stone, and Elizabeth Blackwell, if we wanted to keep going.
However, I decided to keep the list to more literal "fighters." (If you
don't think standing up to a mob is a form of fighting, you probably weren't
in any serious demonstrations back in the '60's/'70's.) I'm not sure if
Aphra Behn's work as a spy really qualifies---it was more court spying than
war related.
I suspect that you could definitely qualify the Pankhursts as more than just symbolic fighters. They not only advocated violence in the pursuit of suffrage, but they were accused of being literal terrorists, in their time. Did quite a bit of property damage and incitement to riot.
Jane Beckman
Gene- the sex-specific magic was part of the spell that held the Nazgul
together; Eowyn slew his steed, the pterodactyl-type flying beast, with
her own sword in her own hand. The exchange "No man am I, etc." broke his
concentration a bit but didn't kill the Nazgul. That was done by the
hobbit cowering on the ground with his eyes shut, but he did it with a
magic blade that had been designed specifically to undo that kind of
spell. What makes Eowyn's deed so great, besides the size of the critter
she killed, was that the sheer terror of the Naz was its big weapon; all
the great riders had fled from it but she stood over the body of the king
and forbad the Nazgul to take it, actually traded boasts with it. To spit
in the face of death is the archetypically heroic deed; that a great lord
could be taken out by a terrified shit-kicker swinging blind is a
different topos entirely.
I promise, no more Tolkien on the Minerva board. Honest.
Val Eads
On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Jennifer Rebecca Peters wrote:
> Val Eads wrote>>>>how about J.R.R. Tolkien's Eowyn? Very
few people seem
> to note that of all the mortal characters in The Lord of the Rings
she
> performs the greatest feat of arms without the aid of magic.
>
> I, who have read the Ring Trilogy more than forty times, completely
forgot
> the Horse Maiden. Yes - true heroism, and not just in battle. But
there was
> magic - she is a woman, and the Nine Horsemen, the Nazgul, could not
be slain
> by MAN.
> Gene Moser
>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 14:30:37 -0400
Dear Val,
You are right on every point. I must reread the Trilogy. (by the way, my
first exposure was through the Ace pirated edition, which I still have -
though its possible value was accidently ruined by my son at age four or so
who tore some pages.
I've got no problem with the use of the Trilogy - in fact its portrayal of
the female (can an Elf Queen really be termed a "woman"?) says volumes about
the perceived role of the woman in society.
And I meant no disrespect to the Lady Eowyn. I once named a motorcycle
"Eowyn".
Gene Moser
Scarlet O'Hara as a hero ... yikes!!! She was a whiney, two faced, _girl_ . Being a southerner by birth, and if I had to choose a female heroine from GWTW, it would have to be Melanie. She showed strenght and courage in a horrible time and did not need to bat her eyelashes to gain attention or prominence.
Liz Penn-Grove
e-grove@sun1.iusb.edu
Indiana University-South Bend
>But Eowyn was included at the insistance of Tolkien's daughter,
who
>hated the way the other female characters just stood around
offering
>moral support. Perhaps we just have to insist on recognition.
>And has anyone mentioned Elizabeth Moon's Paksennarion--a paladin
in
>every sense!
>----------------------------------------
Still, she WAS in there! I also have always admired most of the depictions
of Morgan LeFaye (though not all). I think Marion Zimmer Bradley and Morgan
LLwellyn (you know who I mean. I can't look it up right now.) tend to write
real women, powerful and independent, though they may be forced into
subordination more or less by historical circumstances. Grania and Eleanor
of Acquitaine spring to mind. Many Celtic and Goddess-centered women are
good role models in the works of these two authors.
Donna Dean
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